How Podcasters Can Get Good Stories from Bad Interviews (Coaching Call)

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Hey, everybody. As I prepare for the next season of Podcast Workflows, I wanted to give you a little preseason Bonus Episode. That is a coaching call I had with Amie.

Amie was struggling to get good conversations from her guests. She has a pretty technical podcast, (technical in the professional sense, not in the techie sense, like computer sense). She interviews lawyers, attorneys, and people in the legal space, and so she has a hard time writing those stories. 

And what prompted her to reach out to me was she attended a webinar I hosted where I talked about seven mistakes that podcasters make and one is not forming the narrative. And so she hopped on a coaching call with me and we talked about how to leverage a pre-interview to elicit those good questions and those good conversations. And we talked about a storytelling format where instead of her just doing a straight conversation, she can record the questions and answers, grab the answers, and then write a story around it. 

So I really enjoyed this call with Amie. I think that she has the drive and the resources to be able to do some of the things we talked about. I’m really excited about where her show is going to go from here. 

So this is pretty much a straight call,  (not to…) I edited some parts out for clarity and I edited…I added a little disclaimer kind of at one point where we wanted to protect the identity of some people that we were talking about. But other than that, it’s a pretty straightforward conversation. 

I hope you enjoy it. 

if you want to get all of the show notes and learn more about what Amie is doing, check for the link in the description in your podcast player. And you can join my mailing list over at [podcastworkflows.com]. Otherwise, here is my conversation with Amie.

Joe: Okay. So your employer told you, “You should start a podcast”. 

So tell me a little, the thing that I like to, well, I always like to ask the first question, like, what’s your biggest struggle? And then I’m like really into process stuff. So I’d love to know like how you produce your podcast, but it sounds like the harder part for you is actually getting like, the good conversations.

Amie: That’s the hard part. 

Joe:  Okay. 

Amie: Cause everything’s pretty high and dry. Yeah.  it’s… I mean… So when you were talking about stories like that totally rings a hundred percent to me. A hundred percent because I’m also a copywriter. 

Joe: Oh, okay.

Amie: I love stories. So, I love stories. I’m all about it. 

Joe: Yeah.

Amie: So it’s like, “Man, I so wanna tell stories”, but I know like, ’cause when you talk about the developers and how they answer questions directly, it’s like, “Oh, gosh!” 

Joe:  Mm-hmm.

Amie: Come on. Let’s add some fluff. Let’s add some fluff. 

Joe: Yeah. So there’s a couple of things that you could do. I shared… I do these like deep dives on Podcast Workflows, and I just did one on one of my favorite shows History Daily about how, and I think I mentioned this during the live stream, but like, yeah. They’ll take a seemingly dry topic and turn it into this really interesting story. So this creates more work in the edit, but something that you could do is get the answers from your guest, and then you could weave stories around the answers. 

So at this point, I ask Amie to tell me a little bit about a horror story or a bad guest that she had, and she gets pretty specific. She doesn’t name names, but I think that anybody familiar with her show and certainly the people who are on that show would know who she’s talking about here. So, to protect Amie and protect her, I’m going to recount this a little bit and have some of her commentary that’s heavily edited. But basically she had a guest where she had multiple folks including at least one attorney. 

And she really wanted to talk about one aspect of, like a common aspect of these people. So you know, if it’s an attorney client thing, maybe she has the attorney and the client who’s willing to talk about their case. But in this case, the person that she wanted to talk to the most didn’t say much. And the other person basically just spent the whole time pitching their services. So she didn’t really get a good recording that she could use out of this. 

And that’s what I wanted to provide a little bit of context there so that I didn’t have to recount her whole story and possibly give away to people in the know who she’s talking about. 

Amie: Mm-hmm. I learned my lesson with this one. So what this podcast episode was an attorney. This guy, and they were both talking about how it helps bring in clients. So I was hoping to get more of the attorney on the podcast, but it was just one giant pitch.

Joe:  Yeah.

Amie: And I did not see that one coming. So…

Joe:  Yeah.

Amie: Yeah. What ended up happening was, thankfully these aren’t recorded. I just record ’em.

Joe: Yeah. 

Amie: And then I go back and I add my own stuff. Kind of like what you were saying. 

Joe: Yeah. So this is like, this is where a pre-interview will save me too because like I’ve gotten pitches. I got somebody who was like, “I’d love to come on your podcast. Also, this episode needs to be out by this date.” 

And I’m like, “Oh, no. What you’re talking about is sponsorship. Like that’s… this. If you want a specific date and wanna talk about specific things, that is something you pay for.” 

But he was talking about like time management, which is really good for both Developers and Creators, right? Unlike basically anybody almost. So I kind of read him the riot act before he recorded and I was like, “If there’s like a whiff of pitching your thing in this episode, it will not air.”

Amie: Oh man! That’s great. I need to be bold like you. 

Joe: Yeah. I mean like, that’s, you know. I mean I’m from New York, so like we’re just very candid and direct.

Amie: It sounds like I need to…Okay. Be more of a New Yorker and be more bold because we email back and forth. What I ran into is that I would pre-interview these people. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Amie: And the, I don’t know if this is what it’s like for you, but it’s always the same thing. Like it’d be like, I’d be like, all right, it’s like gonna be a 10 minute phone call. Me and you. We’ve never spoken before or like even before the podcast. 

Joe: Yeah.

Amie: Like the.And  Before I’m able to hit record, they give me all the juicy stuff, like right off the bat. 

Joe: Oh yeah. 

Amie: Like all the good stuff. Yeah. And then I’m like, why aren’t you, this isn’t the podcast yet. Don’t tell me this now.

Joe: Yeah. So that happens to me all the time. But that’s good, right? ’cause I write it down and then I say, “Okay. Save that energy. Keep it. I’m gonna ask you the same thing during the recording. Okay?” 

And most…I mean, at least most people in my space understand, like, I’m gonna ask them as if I’ve never heard it before. Right. So it’s like, so you know, oh, you were telling us about, you know, some interesting, I don’t know, I dunno if you interview trial lawyers or not, but like an interesting court case or whatever, right. Or like estate planning, you know, like how do we make that interesting? Right, right. So you were telling me this thing, can you give us the details of that? Right. Like something like that, right. Like tee it up so that they can that story again. Because like most lawyers have good stories, right? Or should?

Amie: They do, but they’re like, that’s confidential information. Like…

Joe: Right. Yeah. 

Amie: Just don’t use names.

Joe: Right. So what I’ll do…so if they do that, what I would do is I will create a fabricated scenario that is very similar to the one where they can’t give the details. 

Let’s say I didn’t have a contract in place with a client. They prepaid me for work and then disappeared for four years. Now, they’re asking for the money back. Do I have to give them that money? Right. So like usually I would paint that picture, like paint a picture like that, right? Where they don’t have to, they could give their non-binding advice as a profession, because this is the other thing. 

Every lawyer I’ve had on my show, every like, it’s all the time. I’ve had a couple and I’m like, “You wanna throw a disclaimer at the beginning that anything they hear on this show is not legal advice and that they should consult a real lawyer in their field or whatever.” 

They’re like, “Yeah. That’s a good idea.”

And I’m like, “Yeah. I know it’s a good idea.” So…

Amie: All right. So adding that disclaimer would really help.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah, because then like, ’cause you know, there are people who’d be like, “Well, I heard this on a podcast. And I’m like, “All right. Well that’s like, not a place for you.” Right.

I always, if I talk about like copyright or something, I’m always like, “I’m not a lawyer. Let’s be clear. This is how I understand it, but I’m not…don’t think I’m right.” 

So, yeah. Like having that disclaimer might, you know, you could always say like, oh yeah, we have a, whenever we have a lawyer on the show, we have a prerecorded disclaimer at the beginning that says, you know, the things that you hear on this show should not be considered legal advice, and you should, you know, consult a lawyer in your state or your country, or whatever. 

You know, however you can wordsmith that part, I think. Right. And that might help open them up a little bit and then like, creating these hypothetical situations instead of asking them like direct details about a case could also open them up a little bit. 

Yeah. So those are the things that I would generally recommend. Like, and again, like the pre-interview, don’t worry about guests repeating things in the pre-show and the main show because you know, this is for you. You’re eliciting information that you want to be stated on the main show, right? So even if you repeat like everything you talk about on the pre-show for your audience, like that’s fine ’cause now you can also think of good follow-up questions or thing like context to add as well. 

Amie: That’s true.  

Joe: Yeah. And then again, the other thing I do like, depending on how much editing, and I know it’s almost lunchtime and I don’t want to keep you, but again, I’d like to learn a little bit about your process because based on how you do post-production, you could like basically like just ask questions, record the whole interview, and then record your, they’re called interstitials, right? The things that you put in between their answers late and kind of sew it all together so that it’s you telling the story. And then you’re using their answers to supplement. Right. 

So you know, Joe had been a Web Developer for 20 years and he was working with a client on and off for a good portion of that. Then the relationship went sour. Here’s how. Then you might wanna have a clip of a lawyer you’re talking to, going like, it doesn’t matter if you’re friends with the person. You always need to have a contract in place. Joe didn’t have a contract in place. Right? Like, that’s like that sort of stuff where it’s almost like your podcast and you are using their answers to support what you’re talking about.

Amie: Is that successful? 

Joe: Hugely, like serial does that, right? Like Serial and Suspect, like the true crime shows, right? Where they’re weaving the story and then they’re getting like clips from the people involved. The guy in jail, the public defendant who’s trying to get them outta jail, whatever ’cause then like, ’cause then you can control it a lot more. And I generally don’t recommend this to people unless they have like the time and the ability or the time and the budget to do that kind of editing.

Amie: I do all the editing. So, I mean, I use Camtasia. It’s…

Joe: Nice.

Amie: Yeah. So it’s like, it’s not a big deal. I just don’t know how to properly do the podcast. I figured like the conversational style would’ve been the way to go. But how you’re saying like, I could, let me make sure I understand you right. So I’m recording a conversation with a lawyer.

Joe: Mm-hmm.

Amie: And I’m asking ’em the questions and we’re having a conversation, and then I go into editing and I only grab like the really good answers and then I go back and I film myself. ’cause it’s also video too. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Amie: So I film  myself weaving the stories in between their answers. 

Joe: Yeah. That’s…and like, I mean,maybe if it’s a good conversation, right? You keep it conversational, but like if you’re getting like short answers or boring answers right then, and the way to do it, and this is something you’d have to keep, like I would probably, if I was doing it this way, I would keep a post-it note like right here to be like, pause after their answer. 

Amie: Okay. 

Joe: And pause and, because you wanna make sure that you’re leaving and I mean, I guess if you’re just getting their track, it doesn’t matter. But you want a little bit of a gap to make it a little easier to edit. 

Amie: Yeah. 

Joe: But yeah, ’cause then, then you’re essentially, and I’m like jumping all over the place, but then you’re essentially getting like B-roll, right? For the actual, like this is like the, Oh! Ever watch the Daily Show? 

Okay. So on the Daily show, the OR, or Colbert, right? They would have these ridiculous interviews with real people, but they weren’t being serious journalists. Like there’s no way that they just like, released that interview unedited, right? Because they’re editing for comedic impact, right? 

Amie: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe: It’s like how Jay Leno’s like man on the street interviews, they only picked the dumbest people, right? Most people probably know who the first president was, but like the five people who were stupid enough to be like King George or whatever, like, those are the people that they really like milked the footage out of. Right. 

So, yeah. So you could definitely do it that way. And it’s really interesting. Founders will do this too, right? Where they hire a podcast production company and the host that they hire is basically just there to elicit good answers from the founder so that the founder has a podcast because they can’t just talk on their own, right? Like some people have a hard time talking for 20 minutes a half hour straight. I obviously don’t have that problem ’cause I’m really, I talk a lot, but like, you know, some people are like, what would I even talk about? Right. So like, the job of the interviewer, here’s what you can talk about. 

So, I know I gave you a lot of stuff there.I hope. Hopefully it was. There were at least a couple things that you can maybe start trying. 

Amie: Well, now I am. Thank you so much by the way, and I’m really glad you recorded this. So what were your examples of the ones where they only used the main clips? 

Joe: Mm, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a lot from Wondery is the Podcast Network. So like, Wondery, a Wonder with a ‘Y’ at the end of it. Suspect is one. So that’s a True Crime podcast where basically the journalist is telling a story and then they’re using, you know, not footage, but audio that they got from the people they interviewed to supplement and support what they’re talking about.

So it’ll be like, you know, Leon was just a kid, he didn’t even know what was going on when he was arrested. And then like, they’ll cut to Leon talking about how like I had no idea what I was doing, man. And then now that I’m in my forties, I know better whatever. Like, so like, it’s like sort of like that. Something closer to what you might do.

My friend Yong-Soo Chung has a podcast called First Class Founders. And So he will interview a founder and he’ll grab the story and he’ll basically do the same thing. So he’ll be like, you know, KeHE used to be a Wall Street or an investor at BlackRock and he was well on his way to making a million dollar salary, and then he quit and then it’ll cut to KeHE talking about how like, they always say the best time to quit is after next year’s bonus. And I was in that cycle. And then one year I just decided it’s time to go. Right. 

So like that’s the sort of thing that I think could work really well for you. So, and it does take a little like pre-thought, right? If you’re gonna have like an estate planning lawyer or whatever, right? You’re gonna want to know the hook, right? Like before, and then kind of ask those questions to elicit answers that you might be like worst case scenario, what happens if, you know both parents die in a car accident and they leave the kid behind or whatever, right? Ask them that question and then you don’t necessarily have to lead in with that, but you could say like, how important is estate planning? 

Well, I asked Johnny Lawyer over here (I’m so good at coming up with names) I asked Johnny Lawyer, what could happen to kids in the event of an untimely death of both parents. And then you have that answer and then you can be like, you know, as a mother of two kids myself, that really hit home for me. 

Amie: Oh, man! You’re giving me so many ideas. 

Okay. Does it have to be structurally the same though like with each podcast episode? Like is it okay if like one is like conversational style, me and the other person? ’cause it’s a really good conversation. 

Joe: This is a great time to experiment, right? 

Amie: Mm-hmm. 

Like maybe. Maybe one format works, right? Like look at your best performing episode so far. See how that’s done? Switch up the format a little bit and then kind of see how that does over time. And again, like if you have like a couple of good interviews, right? Like just release them as you normally would. But then like when you get a bad one, you’d be like, all right, I’m gonna try this. 

Amie: Perfect! 

Joe: Yeah.

Amie: Oh my gosh! Thank you so much. 

Joe: Yeah. No problem.

Amie: I thought all of ’em had to be the same. 

Joe: No. Like, I am bullish on mixing it up. So for like the first 150 episodes of my podcast, I asked the same five questions. 

Amie: Oh, see? That’s, yeah. That’s me. 

Joe: Yeah. And like, it was okay for the first a hundred or so episodes, but then I started to notice my downloads going down, right. Because like more people were podcasting and it just didn’t, it didn’t become very interesting after a while. So then I mix it up. 

So now I have the interviews. I still do, and they’re not, they’re never the same five questions. They’re very guest specific. 

I have solo episodes where it’s like me talking for 20 minutes on a topic, and every Friday I have a five to 10 minute episode about a specific tool that I’ve been trying and enjoying.

Amie: That is so cool. 

Joe: Yeah.

Amie: I gotta get on your podcast and start listening.

Joe: Yeah. 

Amie: That’s cool. So you mix it up and you’re able to see what works best. 

Joe: Yeah. What does well, right. What doesn’t do well. What guests resonated more stuff like that. Right.

And as you experiment more, you kind of see, oh, like this really, the only problem is, right, it’s like if you do this one and it takes you like forever and it like kills it, now you’re like, “Oh, man! Now I’m on the hook for like 10 hours of work for every episode. 

Amie: Right, right. 

Joe: Yeah.

Amie: So, do you do the video too, or is it just audio?

Joe: I just do audio right now. I release the audio only on YouTube. And for my solo show, I keep the camera rolling.

Amie: Oh, okay.  

Joe: And so I’ll use that to like release clips and stuff. So, yeah. 

Amie:Amie: Yeah.

Joe: So I don’t do the video editing side of things just ’cause like, I think, you know, again, I’ve been podcasting for like over 10 years and so like 

Amie: Oh, wow!

Joe:  Yeah. 

Amie: Long time. I had no idea. 

Joe: Oh yeah. Yeah. I’ve been doing it for a while. So I’ve made like every mistake.

Amie: I feel so much better now. 

Joe: Yeah. Absolutely. Like my first show was like legit, just like me and three friends, like talking about something we knew nothing about. I was like, we should have a podcast. That’s just like a barroom conversation. Like, do you know how terrible that podcast is? It’s terrible.

Amie: Well, it’s kind of like Seinfeld a show about nothing. 

Joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. Except like there were good writers on Seinfeld. 

Amie: Right.

Joe: And like it was just like, oh, so like, what’s this Bitcoin thing? Like, oh, I don’t know. I think it’s like Digital Money. Like that was like an actual episode. We did an episode on Bitcoin and none of us researched Bitcoin. Like, we just started talking about it on Skype.

Amie: Oh, you’re just bing.

Joe: At this point, ee had to end the conversation because Amie’s kids were getting hungry. Amie was a few hours behind me (timezone wise) and so my kids had already eaten, but hers had not. So,  we, this was a really good place to stop it. 

Though, I think because we covered a lot of ground. Right. I told her a little bit about my experience making all of the mistakes, how she can mix up her formats and test a little bit. And one of the things, the important things, I think here was her allowing her guests to add a disclaimer, right? This was something, like I said, that I’ve done with some of my lawyer guests and other professional guests because people hear professional talking and they’re going to think that’s legal advice, right? And so this makes, in my experience, especially attorneys hesitant to say things definitively. So adding that disclaimer, having that pre-interview will definitely open the guests up a little bit more. 

If you like this and you want your own coaching call, you can head over to [podcastliftoff.com/coaching]. There are a few options there. And be sure to be on the lookout for more episodes of this show coming out very soon. 

Thanks so much for listening, and I can’t wait to see what you make.